Laurie: Hi Bobby.
Bobby: You said to call you Monday or Tuesday.
Laurie: Hold on. Let me get someone else off the other line.
Bobby: I was thinking about calling Bernie, just to talk to him. But I didn’t know if it was a good idea or a bad idea.
Laurie: I wouldn’t call him.
Bobby: A bad idea?
Laurie: Bernie gets something in his head ...
Laurie: I’m not telling you what (crosstalk) ... I’m advising you. He carries a grudge. He feels like you owed him that money and he wants it and...
Bobby: That money from like...? Remember we talked about this the last time? Like he’s still talking about that then?
Laurie: Him? That’s his big bone of contention. If you ...
Bobby: How about that stuff at Manley, when he came and threatened me and everything? Remember I called you that day and I was scared?
Bobby: I just said Bernie I’m not going to pay you for all the things, for what you done to me and what you put me through. I think we’re even, whatever. You know. He thought it was good then because he thought I was going to talk to him again.
Laurie: He felt like he lent you the money. You said you were going to pay him back. And you didn’t and that’s the end of it. He says, ‘I’ll check off my losses but I will never forget.’ ‘That’s up to you.’
Bobby: Like he did nothing wrong. You know, all the stuff he’s done to me ...
Laurie: No, he doesn’t think he does anything wrong. And Bernie is also in denial. I think he did the things he did, but he’s — somehow through his own mental telepathy — erased them out of his mind.
Bobby: I kind of, like, I said, Bernie, leave me alone or I’m going to tell some people about what happened, what you did to me. He was like it was no big deal. Like, whatever. Like he’s never done anything.
Laurie: I don't think he even acknowledges what happened. I think he did it and he might’ve been — I don’t know — in another ... (cut off)
Bobby: You think I’m the only one he’s ever done that to?
Bobby: So.. You don’t think I’m the only one that did it.
Laurie: No, I don’t but ... I don't know ... you’re asking me: should you talk to (Bernie)? No, cause what’s to talk about? It’s the same ..
Bobby: I’m having issues with the thing. Like I’m just struggling with it a little.
Laurie: Well, I mean, I’m not a good sweep-it-under-the-rug kind of person. You’re only going to end up getting hurt in the long run again.
Bobby: I know. As much as I try to avoid it, I try to stay away from it. I think about it every day. I don’t know. There’s so much history there, you know.
Laurie: Oh, I understand that.
Bobby: You’re the only one who really knows, like, me and you.
Laurie: I just think you’re going to set yourself up and what have you really got to gain from doing anything, from trying to confront him to talk to him?
Bobby: I don’t know. Just because he’s been there all that time.
Laurie: The thing with Bernie is if you run across paths in years to come, that’s one thing but ...
Bobby: You’ve never see him do anything with anybody else, have you?
Bobby: That one time you told me you saw him, like when I was really young, you saw him through the basement window when you were taking the garbage out?
Laurie: Right. I don't know. Is this bothersome to you?
Bobby: Yeah it is. Lately it has been. It hit me hard. I really don’t know why.
Bobby: You don’t think he needs help? Or is it too late?
Laurie: I don’t know.
Bobby: That’s what I keep thinking: maybe ... I feel bad. All the stuff he did to me when I was younger, you know what I mean. (unintelligible) I tried to do something, he tried to grab me.
Laurie: He doesn’t learn.
Bobby: Exactly. Like the last time at Manley, the last time I saw him , I told him it’s over...
Laurie: No one’s with you, are they?
Bobby: No, no. I wouldn’t ... Laurie.
Laurie: I know.
Bobby: When I called...
Laurie: (unintelligible) about peoples privacy and I ... not that I think you're going to.
Bobby: Is anyone there?
Laurie: No. Not that I think you’re gonna record anything I say, but I’m very cautious about what I say.
Bobby: The thing about Bernie, I called him a pedophile and all this, and he still goes to Manley and he still tries to grab me in his office. He shuts the door.
Laurie: No I don’t. I just think, I think there might have been others. but it was geared to you. There was something about you...
Bobby: That’s what I was wondering. Like, why was I the worst one?
Laurie: You know, Bobby, again ... When he goes out of town, I don’t know anything. I don't think... I’m involved with the kids. I don’t see anything else. I used to live, eat, sleep and drink basketball. Now, I am so the other end the last few years that I couldn’t tell you the recruits they have. Because I just don’t care.
Bobby: I remember you wrote him a letter once and he never ...
Laurie: He never even responded to it, so you know what? You give up after a while.
Bobby: That’s why I think he needs help. I don’t know if it’s too late.
Laurie: He’s going to be 60 in a few years. What are you going to do to rehabilitate someone like that? What are you going to do?
Bobby: That’s what I keep thinking, maybe if I would’ve said something about him a long time ago, maybe he would’ve gotten some help.
Laurie: He doesn’t think he needs help. Because if I say to him...
Bobby: He likes boys. I mean, he likes. ...
Laurie: When I told him, you know .... When we talked, I felt really bad you were calling me over a year ago about this whole money thing? I said to him, um, ‘You know Bobby and I talked. I know some things about you that, if you keep pushing, are going to be let out.’ He didn’t even flinch.
Bobby: I know, that’s what I’m saying.
Laurie: He says, Let him go. Let him go ahead. Let him go right ahead.
Bobby: He doesn’t think he could be (unintelligible).
Laurie: I think he thinks he’s above the law.
Bobby: I’ve always thought that but especially after he came and grabbed me by the neck in front of everybody at Manley, you know, I’m like what the heck. And I tell him, ‘Bernie, if you don’t leave me alone, I’m gonna tell ... you know, go talk to someone.’ He goes, ‘Do what you gotta do. Whatever.’
Laurie: That’s his line: do what you gotta do.
Bobby: What about the money, like he said I owe him for ... I went to Hawaii with him.
Laurie: He said, Laurie, he came to me and told me he’d pay me back within two years. So I gave him the money on good faith that I’ll get it back.
Bobby: Good faith? Laurie, can I tell you about what happened? (laughs) You probably don’t even want to know.
Laurie: Oh, I’d love to know because — you know what? — I don't have that intimate, lovey feeling with Bernie. So I...
Bobby: He gave me some money but it ...
Laurie: How much did he give you?
Bobby: I think it was $4,000. It was in three installments. This is what happened: I was so mad at the time. I was thinking about a lot, I was going through a lot. It was just to try to get even with him ... I told him I had a school loan. I was just thinking of a way ... Maybe it was the wrong thing to do, and I feel bad about it now. And he did give me about $4,000, in three installments. It was in the summer...
Laurie: (unintelligible) You had a student loan you wanted to pay off.
Bobby: That’s what I’m talking about. This was something I had to say. It had to be three, four summers ago now, right?
Laurie: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Bobby: So four summers ago. (Editor’s note: Bobby was in his mid-20s at the time.) It was when you were in Scott Ave., whatever, it was in the house. He called me. It must’ve been during camp, too, I’m thinking, because he came over during lunch. He’s like, here, I’ve got this amount, and I’ll give you some more tomorrow, but then he’d make me do something.
Laurie: What did he want you to do? You can be honest with me.
Bobby: What do you think? What he always does.
Laurie: He wants you to grab him? Or blow him?
Bobby: He tried to make me grab him. But first he’d try to grab me and start touching me. ...
Laurie: Right. But when he gave you the money, what did he want for that? He wanted you to grab him or he wanted to do you?
Bobby: He wanted to do me. He wanted me to touch him. He tried to make me touch him a couple of times. He’d grab my hand and then I’d pull away. Then he’d put me in your bed and then, you know, put me down. And I’d try to go away. Then he put his arm on top of my chest. He goes, If you want this money, you’ll stay right here. I’d try to leave and he’d grab me real hard. You know what he does — I told you about this before, right? He’d grab you if you tried to walk away and he’d say, I’ll pull it off or something like that.
Laurie: Right, right.
Bobby: I told you that before.
Laurie: But you never had any oral sex with him?
Bobby: No. I think he’d want to.
Laurie: Of course, he would. Why wouldn’t he?
Bobby: I don't know. (laughs)
Laurie: So then he gives you all this money. Now you’re not willing to ...
Bobby: This is three days in a row. And then I never came around again, I was so, like, distraught. I was like oh my gosh. I don’t know. It was a weird situation. Now I look back, there’s no way I could give him the money back after what I went through. Maybe that’s wrong, I don’t know.
Laurie: See, the money isn’t the issue here. He lured you with the money. See, he knew full well what he was doing.
Laurie: ... In fact the other day, as a matter of fact it’s funny that you mentioned it, ... we sold Scott Ave.
Bobby: You got rid of it?
Laurie: Yeah, Scott Ave. is gone so he couldn’t even drag you back there. Now, Wilson Street is sold sold.
Bobby: You don’t have the fraternity.
Laurie: Yeah, he has the fraternity. He doesn’t go up there anymore, hardly at all. The fraternity moved, so that wasn’t. .. Really, there’s no place for him to run and drag people ...
Bobby: Laurie, it doesn’t matter. He would do it downstairs while you were upstairs cooking sometimes.
Bobby: He’d be like at Manley, he’d shut the door. The secretaries must ... I’d come out all red.
Laurie: When (the Fine’s son) was little and you lived there, he’d say, ‘You better put (their son) to bed.’ I’d say, ‘He is in bed.’ ‘Well, you better go check him.’ And I’d go up to check him. I’d come down. He’d be out of the living room in the basement. He used to think of ways to get me out of the room. Like, I’m not an idiot, Bernie.
|The Fines' Home - Scene of the Crimes?|
Laurie: What did I think? ... And then he’d come down to where you were every night. And he’d say to me, ‘Go check (their son).’ Or... Go lay with him. Go upstairs.’ Anything to get me out of the room. And I knew. I told you when I was walking down the stairs at night, I’d say to myself, Guaranteed he’s not in there. When I’d look in, his papers would be spread out all over and he’d be gone. Right down the basement, door closed.
Bobby: He did that every night.
Laurie: You know what, go to a place where there’s gay boys. Find yourself a gay boy. ... Get your rocks off, and have it be over with. He needs that male companionship that I can’t give him. ...
Bobby: You know how he’d always try to get me in the shower. You knew about that, right?
Laurie: Yeah. I still have a graphic memory of that, thank you.
Bobby: Whenever you weren’t there ...(unintelligible)
Laurie: He’d always say, ‘Bobby and I are going in the Jacuzzi.’ And I’d go to the bathroom and I’d try to come in. The door’d be locked. I’d check: ‘What's going on?’ ‘Nothing.’ I said, ‘Unlock the door.’ ‘No, we’re in our underwear.’
Bobby: So, it’s not me, it’s him.
Laurie: I understand that. You don’t have to explain to me.
Bobby: I’m trying to convince myself.
Laurie: Convince yourself. You did nothing wrong. You did nothing wrong, and you were a child, and he took advantage of that. And with Bernie there’s a price tag on everything. If he does for you, it’s like he records it in a book and you better do it for him.